Saints Row lead designer Clint Ourso believes that Rockstar could explore making a movie out of the Grand Theft Auto franchise.
Speaking to GamesHub.com, Ourso also says that consumers will still be buying GTA 6 despite Rockstar announcing a further delay to the game’s release, while highlighting that co-op is the future for the gaming industry.
Q. How does it feel to have worked on such a beloved series as Saints Row?
“I love it. It’s been great, man. It’s unbelievable how every once in a while I have random conversations with strangers and I tell them I was in the gaming industry and they find out I worked on Saints Row.
“I was at an event in Orlando. We just happened to be next to a couple and got chatting and I told them I used to work in videogames before my current gig. They asked me what I’d worked on, and I told them: “maybe you’ve heard of it? Saints Row?”
“They loved the games. They told me how much they played those titles. Lots of people have played them so that’s been fantastic. I feel a lot of pride about that.
“I still hang out with a lot of the guys that still live around here who worked for the studio and worked on Saints Row.
“After the first Saints Row game a lot of people moved on. That was a tough development. The studio grew huge to make that game. It was the first time we’d done that kind of game. It was really ambitious to create a game in the open world genre when we didn’t have the experience in creating games like that. There was a first time producer and a lot of the first timers were young guys making their first entry into the games industry.
“It was a huge effort but you know how that works. Through all that stress you build that camaraderie and form a bond that becomes really strong so we all keep in touch with a lot of those guys. I think we all have that sense of pride and love for the game and it’s aged well too. It’s still a lot of fun to play.”
Q. Would you and the old team get involved in trying to take back control of the Saints Row IP and revive the franchise with Chris Stockman like he’s suggested?
“Yeah, I’d work with Chris [Stockman]! I keep in touch with Chris and we’ve chatted here and there. That would be great.
“Chris is a huge champion of Saints Row, especially the first game. That laid the foundations and we went from there. I’ll tell you what, if we had Chris Stockman and gave it to Steve Jaros to do the writing again, and bring Greg Donovan back too with the rest of the crew, that would be fun.
“It’s a tough place to go back to though. After that sucker launched, we took it into outer space, we went to hell. Where do we go now? We’d have to be really, really creative to come back but in some ways it’s the perfect opportunity to go retro and take Saints Row back to its roots.
Q. What did you make of the attempted reboot?
“I didn’t play it. I heard some things about it. It was still being developed here so I ran into people working on it. It was a tough one. THQ were all in.
“So I yeah, so I the role that I was in obviously the first and the second one Directly involved in I did I did work on that I played a lot of that a lot of it and especially the first one as just component parts came online right the I think what sticks out to me for that one is The just the physics right when we got the physics in there We got the vehicles and we got all this stuff. It was just a blast to run around in this little test level
“Police would cut like once your notoriety would go up was we kind of had those systems Prototyping a lot of that stuff. So you would just blow up cars with an RPG right and the ragdoll physics were just so entertaining and it would crack you up and then police would start to show up and it was just total mayhem. So it escalated quickly.
“Then you started to see well this game has a lot of potential for what we can do with it so then you know, kind of and I think I Think our ambitions when we saw that we were just shooting for the stars
“Trying to make a franchise out of it. We knew we wanted to have some runway on the franchise side. So it’s We try we had the ties in the sainte-chaux world, you know this haven’t played it You just you had to top yourself So I think in the first and the second those were great roots and then the third was just I when you talk about the pinnacle and kind of where that was I think you know one set the foundation to Ask the you know, certainly elevated that and then three was kind of the pinnacle of really where things went
“We had DLC in between, had Gat Out of Hell and things like that. It’s kind of hard to top three and four, and especially three. It was just really hard, where do you go? Where do you go with that?
“Right when we were owned by THQ and we were making the first one and the second one and the third one. They were just all in with it because they saw the potential and they saw what it was doing and and just the the other day, we did a virtual happy hour with the producer on Saints Row 2 and Saints Row 3 and then the financial guy at the studio so we still have a good time and we’re chatting about that. All the celebrities that we tried to get for Saints Row 2 and Saints Row 3 like Ludacris and Dave Chappelle.
“It was a terrible time to get Dave Chappelle because that’s kind of when he was kind of going off the rails but he’s back. Tara Patrick that did some stuff and then just a lot of the the things that they tried to do so it all kind of coalesced and came to a head. Then as THQ floundered, they went bankrupt and then we got passed around and I think it just became secondary.
“It wasn’t that you didn’t have the marketing dollars, the belief on the publisher level and things like that. You had a company or companies that just nickel and dimed us. They wanted to account for every pencil and notepad and things like that. So it became really tough to do what we needed to do and get given the freedom to really take it and to take the time to make something that was really, really going to do the franchise justice. So a lot of it was timing and external factors.
Q. I guess this is the opposite of what Rockstar are dealing with because everyone talked about the timelines they’ve had. It’s a two billion dollar budget for it. I mean, think a lot of people that don’t know gaming go, how is a video game costing two billion dollars? But I guess if you need to do something that fast and do it well, you need the money, right?
“Yeah that’s the time it takes right. You’ve got the developers and you’re going to prototype things. They’re like Naughty Dog these days and they have a forest of money trees and they grow their money and they have an unlimited supply because the potential is there. It’s like FIFA, there is a worldwide demand for it.
“The burn rate has to be ridiculous per month. That’s what sunk the Saints Row franchise. It’s the amount of burn you needed and in the budget you needed to maintain that and that development team, it just became untenable I think for the companies that picked us up that were much smaller than what a THQ was, everybody’s clamoring for that and I think that is certainly the case with Saints Row.
“They’re riding the coattails on that popularity and thinking of that stuff. It’s expensive but with Rockstar, they are like the Oasis of the games industry. Whether you like them or hate them, they do their thing because they have the money and the means.”
Q. Do you think if you were to make a Saints Row today, do you think that you would go down the same route of the game being serious with gang violence but also doubling down on the fun aspects of the game? Instead of going one on one against GTA 6, do you think that is now the recipe for success?
“Absolutely. I don’t think you can get away from that formula. That’s just kind of in the DNA of Saints Row. We don’t take ourselves too seriously. We’re not trying to be a Scorsese film, right? We’re trying to be more of a Will Ferrell movie with that gangster element. We talk about getting Chris Stockman on some of that. That’s a lot of the roots of this stuff.
“Also playing off of Steve Jaros and then Alan Lawrence and just that pod of what we had for tossing ideas around and some of the ideas were crazy. We backed ourselves and painted ourselves in that corner. How the hell do you top the crazy stuff that we’ve done like the six foot purple dildo? Where do you go from there? We need to be less serious and much more, having fun, not trying to make a statement or anything like that.”
Q. Was there a real design philosophy where you looked at the elements of Vice City and San Andreas and thought if Rockstar are going that way, we’re going to go completely the other way? Was it a real intentful thing that you guys did for that?
“I don’t think we intentionally chose to just do the opposite or contrast to what they were doing. I think it was more of just organically who we were and really bringing that team together and where we wanted to go and where we wanted to take the game.
“When we saw it, we had that foundation in place where we could prototype things and we could play around with stuff. We saw the fun and much more of a free fun if we’re going to force it.That was some of the other early games and GTA would frustrate the hell out of you. When you’re trying to go through these serious things, it’s like let’s not just have a little more fun. Let’s let the players just do what they want to do so that part was intentional but it was more organic then on the mechanics. We were really just reflecting who we all were in our personalities.”
Q. One of the other features that define Saints Row, maybe not with the headline items, but you guys kind of did co-op before. I don’t think GTA have really done co-op really in that sense. In GTA 6, they’ve said there’s going to be two main characters. Is that an area you’d love to see GTA explore to go down that co-op route?
“That would be awesome. As a gamer, I think that would be a fantastic world to open up. I think to have co-op fun and to play with friends, then from there you can grow on more. You can expand it more into a gang smaller group type of thing. Technology now will allow it as well as a little bit of larger groups.
“I think that’s one of the things where we had a lot of technological challenges when we did that. Given the technology at the time and what we were doing, networking is up and now it’s so you could easily achieve that. I think it’s just so much more fun and a really good time to be gaming with friends.”
Q. If you were to look at what GTA 4 and GTA 5 maybe didn’t have or lost, what would you love to see them put into GTA 6 that we haven’t heard about? It might be completely off the wall. Is there anything you’d love to see them bring in to mix up the formula a bit?
Co-op would be good. I think more of the community stuff where you’d have more of the interactive community. From what I remember from a lot of those, when I played those, especially during the Saints Row development, there was a lot of individual, single player play and things like that. There was a lot of the missions that you would go through. Co-op would be a great addition.
I think multiplayer would be a great addition, but at what scale do you do multiplayer? Can you pull that off? I think that would be the logical step because that’s really where everything is at and that’s huge for them in that world. That’s a great innovation for them and a great feature.
Q. So is it bringing multiplayer into the single player narrative. Is that what we’re thinking?
“Exactly. That’s really where we were for Saints Row. That’s kind of what we tried to do for co-op is how do we take the Saints Row game and make that more cooperative with a partner. I think in GTA that would lend itself even more.”
Q. What would you do if you had the chance to revive Saints Row with Rockstar’s $2billion budget?
“I think there would be a few things to do there. I think one could be just that resurrection of something that goes back to the foundations that would be taking a good combination of all the stuff across the main fun aspects and bringing back some of the characters.
“Bringing back some of the storylines and putting that together in a big package where it could be a co-op, it could be even just a smaller group since it is a gang. Somebody could play Johnny Gat, somebody could play as one of the other gangs. That would be kind of cool. I think bringing that but also a nod to the past, updating all of that stuff and then introducing some new things to contribute.
“It would be great to have the writing aspect strengthened with that budget. I’m sure we could spend the heck out of that making some fun stuff for sure.”
Q. People outside of gaming don’t look down on the industry, but they just don’t understand how big it’s got really. When people look at GTA 6, they say a $2billion budget for a company like Rockstar, is that sustainable? Are they just too big to fail now? Because it’s just, it’s such a monster.
“I don’t think anyone’s too big to fail. I think they’re smart. I think they have the experience though to know how to navigate things and to keep a reserve and take a risk here and there.
“At the end of the day with the technology that they have, it’s their technology and whether it’s a GTA or whether it’s a Red Dead, that’s a fantastic engine to build on and they have a huge fan base, regardless of what they build. It’s just fantastic.
“So I think they know they’re smart guys. The leadership is smart. They know how to navigate this stuff and they figure things out but they’re also have gotten lucky with timing, I mean just like your normal success stories, right? There’s some luck. There’s some skill but you have got to make the right decision to take advantage of the opportunities when you have them.
“They definitely could fail but I don’t see that being in their track record of making bad decisions for sure and the landscape has changed too. I don’t think it’s changed to the point where it’s going to be much more of a risk for them really.
Q. It seems harder for mid-level developers to be the really big guys, because they’re just so big and they’ve got so much resource and so much brand value…
“Yes, the brand is and that’s something that they really haven’t explored a lot of is really taking the brand outside of GTA. The gaming for say Saints Row, we explored with entertainment. We had a movie and we were talking for a couple for Saints Row 2, Saints Row 3 editions. I think we had discussed some things with some movie companies.
“One of the VPs at THQ, Danny Billson, was big in the film industry and his daughter was in movies and things like that. So I think we were trying to make those inroads and stuff like that, you know, take the brand and really grow the brand but you haven’t really seen GTA do a lot of that when they absolutely have the potential to do it. But I think it’s good for them to keep it pure and focused.”
Q. If there was a Saints Row film, who would be your dream cast?
“The voice actors we’ve had have been phenomenal. I was just thinking through all the guys that we’ve had. We’ve lost some wonderful actors that we had. Michael Clarke Duncan has passed, and Burt Reynolds has passed. Unfortunately, they would be fantastic to have.
“Daniel Dae Kim would be good for Gatt. I think he’s just kind of a good Gatt and can play it. He’s got a good versatile range. I think a lot of the voice actors would be great if we could get them to play those roles. I think that taking their imagery, looking at them in the game versus their real life, I think they would fit. I think most of them would fit into those roles.”
Q. I guess the challenges Rockstar have got, obviously it’s not been a great month for them, they had to delay the game again. And there’s been this controversy about dismissals of staff at the Rockstar office around, well, the staff say Union Bust in Rockstar said they were leaking stuff to a Discord and stuff like that. Do you have any worries about the launch of GTA 6? Because it is a bit of a wobble, how are you feeling about it?
“I don’t have any concerns because they’ve done this before. This is not the first time right. They know how to navigate that and at the end of the day what does it do? You’re gonna get the game eventually. It’s just going to create more demand for it and more mystique to the studio. You know it’s good press at the end of the day. People with the same number of people if not more will still buy it so I’m not worried.
Q. Going beyond GTA 6 now and GTA 7 or wherever they end up, they’ve obviously never taken the game outside of the US apart from when they did London in the 2D era, Is that something you ever looked at with Saints Row or was it always gonna be like an American-centric sort of setting for the series?
“There was a spin-off game that we were making that had light ties to the Saints which was set in Europe. So we actually had that but it was a different type of game.
“It had some foundational stuff, but it had some differences too and some links and ties back but it wasn’t really a Saints Row world type of game. I mean the cities could be anywhere right at the end of the day. They just happen to be still water and in the US because that’s what we knew and then I think when we do research and stuff like that, it was the easiest for us.
“On the feature side of that is that we had to drive around right and one of the things we had to figure out what was right. What were the right dimensions, the right proportions for the roads for the buildings for things like that to make the game look good and to make it drivable and fun.
“So we actually had to widen things a lot. When you look at Europe and you look at a lot of those cities, for the discerning gamer who’s gonna look at that type of thing? That might not be the easiest.
“London has wider roads in some places but some places it’s not so wide. That was one of the other things. I wouldn’t say that was a major driver for where we chose to set it and things like that, but it was definitely something that once we got to that point, it’s a good thing. We do have that flexibility and the freedom to do that here. It wouldn’t necessarily sell if it was a narrow street in Europe.”
Q. Saints Row went to all sorts of places, including virtual reality. Saints Row does have the pedigree of moving things around and mixing it up. Do you think Rockstar have to either come up with a new US locale to go after or do they need to start looking at an international GTA potentially for the future?
“I think an international GTA would be very exciting. I think that would be really cool. Given their mechanics and what you do in that game. They could pull that off, right? The driving is definitely a part of it, but it’s not a huge part that you can’t pull off in a European city. I think we could do that and kind of get away with it.
“I think with the technology we have now too, globe hopping would be great. I think that would be something where it’s not just the places in the US where they’ve already been but moving around.
“I mean Dubai would be fun with the setting of the skyrises they have there and the high rises that would look like Fast and Furious.”
“You kind of follow that model. They kind of cop all over the place. Brazil, what a cool setting that would be.
“There’s a lot of South American and Asian areas, not just Europe that have cool settings and why settle on one? You could really, even being efficient with your resources, utilize multiple settings. That would be really cool. So looking down the road, if I was a strategic planner on that franchise I think that would be kind of a cool place to take it.”
Q. Some rumors think that in GTA 6, it’s actually going to potentially cross borders and there might be some kind of drug-running mechanic over the Caribbean Sea to South America. When you’re building games like that, is it quite important to stash some of that? Not as an Easter egg because you’re going to announce it close to the time, but would you be surprised if Rockstar are holding out on us with some stuff as a kind of grand reveal for when we get closer to release?
“No, not at all. I think that would be smart. Those guys are brilliant and they know how to market that stuff. There was Vice City or San Andreas, there was one where they were just teasers, right? They didn’t disclose anything. It was almost just the title, but it built so much speculation and how much excitement and how much that built. They know that. That’s a formula for them. They know how to really take advantage of that and build that excitement.”
Q. The other big debate around GTA 6 is obviously the price. It’s not just Rockstar, it’s not just GTA 6, but everyone’s kind of either saying $100 games are a good thing. Players obviously aren’t saying it’s a good thing, some developers are saying it’s a good thing. Some people have said GTA 6 is like the only game that will be worth $100 or one of the only games worth $100. Do you agree with that or do you think it’s still just a step beyond what we should be paying for video games?
“I think both. One is probably more than we should be paying for video games. But everything’s going up and development costs are going up. GTA is absolutely worth even a hundred dollars. I would pay for GTA because it will be worth it. And if they don’t do it, that’s the other thing, right? The model they choose, they don’t try to nickel and dime you later with all this stuff. You just shell out your hundred dollars and you have the game and you have the stuff that’s in it. That’s a value, I think.”
Q. I guess it’d be interesting if they do a re-release, because they did the first-person re-release for next gen, didn’t they? So I don’t know what the next next gen will be in five or ten years time, which we’ll have to go and buy it for. I don’t think maybe not VR, but maybe it’ll go somewhere else.
“Yeah, some interim technology or something. Who knows, right? In a few years, what prices will be. But that two billion dollar budget—I’m sure they’ve invested their money well from the previous games. But you still got to pay the bills and pay the developers. That’s where your drivers are, right? Your developers. They have a global team because they’re in Scotland. I forgot some of the other offices where they are. But yeah, to maintain that infrastructure and then all the talent.”
Q. I guess to change tracks a bit—Red Faction, an amazing IP that you’ve worked on. Is that maybe one of the greatest IPs lurking, waiting to be reworked, brought back, reinvented?
“I would think so. Given all the hype about going to Mars and space and things like that, and the innovative technology we had back then, you could really do some fun things with it now. Especially the challenge was building a story and making that an immersion, an integral part of the gameplay, taking advantage of the technology and the geomods. Now, just trying to build that into much more. People have done more since then. Absolutely. I think that one would be a fun one to do. It didn’t have nearly the base that Saints Row had, but I think it had a good base. I think we could have some new audience and things like that for that. So yeah, that would be a fun one too for sure.”
Q. We always talk about advances in graphics and the rest of it, but I’ve always personally been more interested in advances in gameplay and mechanics. I really can’t think of any games these days that are committing to destructible environments in the same way that the Red Faction series did. Do you think it’s easier or harder these days technically to pull that off? Does the fidelity make it harder to do those things or is the challenge still what it was?
“I think it would be easier. There definitely would be a ramp up on that, though, right? To test that out, to prototype that stuff and build it. You see some arbitrary destruction in Battlefield and Call of Duty and things like that. But it’s a different genre and there’s more that goes on there versus when this is part of the mission, right? You have to figure this out and utilize this to advance what you’re doing, not just to blow some stuff up and get to some people. There is that in the multiplayer component, of course.
“But I think that was the challenge. Given what we know, given what we’ve seen in other games since then and the ability with technology to prototype and test that stuff and what we can get, I think now would be a very good time to resurrect that and take advantage of it. You could make it much more fun and integral than before, because it was just window dressing before, right? Hey, we gotta throw this in somewhere, how do we do it?”
Q. For me, it feels like one of those frontiers in gameplay and mechanics where I’d love a Rockstar or a CD Projekt Red to bring that into GTA or bring that into Cyberpunk. Do you think there’s a reason why they haven’t? Do you think it’s just technically difficult?
“I think it’s a trade-off. Technically, they can do it. When we did it back in the day, I think you could certainly do it now. But it’s a trade-off. It does cost on the resources. Granted, GPUs and CPUs have advanced a lot. But at the end of the day in an open world genre, there’s probably still a bit of a trade-off with trying to render the whole thing and then trying to do all this computational math in real-time in an arbitrary fashion when you’re trying to render all this up and also keep everything else going on and what appears to be a living world.
“I don’t know by any stretch the metrics on all that stuff and how saturated the technology is. But I would think to really pull it off and really do that stuff in a way that’s believable and doesn’t look canned and pre-done, I think it’s a tuning, right? You just tune what you spend on that versus what you spend on this and try to set that up. I think it would take some trial and error, but yeah, I think you could do it.”
Q. You said earlier about Red Faction going into a different base with Saints Row, and obviously I’m going to mention Doom now, which had a massive brand and all the rest of it. But you see how they’ve reinvented Doom into a triple-A game, right? They’ve taken it a step further. They’ve almost gone a bit Saints Row with it and taken it to great new lengths with new locales and all the rest of it. Given the technology that we’re going to see with the PS6 or whatever’s coming around, how big of a franchise do you think Red Faction could be? If someone got hold of it and gave it another go, how big do you think it could be in the next cycle of consoles?
“I think it could be big. I don’t think it could be huge. I just don’t think the base is there, especially with the competition. Although you look at the industry now, and there’s not a lot of people taking chances on new IP. There’s so much consolidation and layoffs and just bare minimum. I think it could do well. It’s how you position it.
“You position it as more of a platform exclusive, something that’s a launch title. I think you would probably have to take advantage of those opportunities to make it and get some momentum to make it big and sustainable. It could certainly get lost in the weeds if you didn’t. But it depends on how well you pull that off, how well you differentiate. Hey, you got this Geomod technology that you haven’t seen before on this new platform. Check this out”
Q. Yeah, I honestly would love to see it because I love those games. But I guess Embracer own the IP now for Red Faction as well as Saints Row. I don’t know if Chris Stockman is going to get the Saints Row IP. If you could get your hands on Red Faction, do you have an idea of what you would do with it today if you could bring it back?
“Might as well guess. I haven’t really thought much about that one. I think that would be another one where you’d go back to the roots, right? You’d go back. I stink at it, but you go the Half-Life and Red Faction kind of that period of gaming when those things came out. Just look at the fun—that story-driven and then you had the Geomod tech to it. But it’s the Mars thing, where I almost take it back and do a reboot or kind of rethink it.
“Yeah, I guess a reboot of the original Red Faction. Red Faction 2 was somewhat forgettable, no question. Red Faction: Guerrilla and things like that, I think you started to see more of that. But it kind of went back a little bit there. I think that would be cool … the Mars stuff and the things and even some of the geomods there. They worked right. There wasn’t much that worked in the gameplay, but there was stuff to train in the tunnel and things like that. I think there’s some cool stuff you could do there that would definitely get the old fans, bring in some new fans and stuff like that. So that probably would be just off the top of my head.
Q. Why not? We said earlier that if you could move Saints Row or even GTA to a different location, geographic is one thing, but time, the future. I imagine a GTA on Mars. GTA has never done the time thing. I think GTA 2, which was a 2D one, is a little bit futuristic, but not really. I don’t know. I think a Saints Row or a GTA on Mars would be something else. Two or three notches above, a thing.
“That would be kind of cool. Yeah, that would be awesome. That would fit right in. It would be hard because GTA is so grounded and contemporary and modern, right? A lot of what they do because you’re looking at what you talked about with Scarface. You’ve talked about Scorsese. We chatted about that, just how they fit that model. It’s kind of hard to go into the future for those things. It’s much more what you know as that gangster genre.”
Q. Yeah, because they did a good job with Red Dead, but you draw on all the cowboy stuff. Whereas I think Bethesda struggled with Starfield because of what you’re talking about. There wasn’t too much to hook it on, really.
“Right, yeah. That’s something that I guess doesn’t have to be … it’s a weird thing with gaming, right? It’s content, it’s something that people are familiar with. You’ve got fantasy, but in that in-between, you either have to make a decision to go all in or keep it grounded. So that’s tough because you can’t have assets because people just don’t get it. They don’t buy into it. I don’t think.”
Q. Just in terms of gaming generally now, given your experience and all, what kind of excites you now, either as a player or as just someone who’s invested in the industry?
“I’m weird, so I like old stuff. I like to see old stuff come back but come back in a new way, right? Like Fallout. I love the Fallout series. I like seeing your series now, right? I can’t remember what streaming service it’s on, but the cast is fantastic. I saw the trailer for that stuff and things like, holy smokes. He’s got all kinds of great actors signed on to that stuff. So I like to see things like that come out.
“I do much more watching movies and series now than I do gaming, unfortunately. That just happens when you get older, right? You grow up. But I do still try to play that stuff. I go back and play a lot of retro stuff. I’d love to go back and play some Red Dead. I still do the Fallout stuff. Saints Row would be a good one to just fire up again, which I haven’t. And even Red Faction.
“ I’d love to go back and fire up Red Faction and Half-Life and things like that. But I like to see that stuff cross over and come back in a new way. I mean, just old titles, man. Like with GTA, they come out and then I get them. I did see something about Red Dead coming. I can’t remember what the announcement was. Maybe to a different platform. But that excites me. That’s probably my all-time favourite—playing Red Dead Redemption and Red Dead 2. Those were so much fun.
“But yeah, that type of thing is what excites me. Just to see those old things come back and see new stuff that’s done well, right? New stuff that really does. It even crosses over to different types of media and stuff like that, which is always exciting, just to see it become more of pop culture and mainstream, you know?”
Q. I think everyone’s expecting GTA 6 to push things on again as well. But are there any other upcoming titles you think have that potential to stretch the industry, set some new benchmarks?
“With everything that’s been on hold and slowed down, I haven’t seen a lot. Your normal Call of Duties, your Battlefields and things like that—those are great, but that’s almost where you become desensitized to it, like, there’s another one coming out, you know? More people, different commercials and things like that.
“So those are just kind of … I don’t really pay much attention to those types of things. And I get my ass kicked in any of those games, so there’s no fun for me. But yeah, it’s really tough because you don’t see a lot of that. I think we’re in that period where it’s slow, and then we’ll start. Like you said, GTA will kick off some more stuff. Companies will see the potential in doing that. But also, with EA going private and stuff like that—where’s that gonna go? Not talking about sports stuff, I mean just talking about IP, new IP stuff.
“Because I guess Mass Effect is one of those IPs there that I think fans are genuinely quite worried that they’re not going to do a good job of it or we might never see another Mass Effect now as well. Yeah, is that worth the spend for what the potential is? I mean, the expectations are ridiculous now for those. No one’s willing to take that risk. That’s a tough one. But yeah, it’s kind of slim with what’s really coming out, what’s being announced.”
Q. We’re seeing a trend of games coming out that maybe don’t quite meet the expectation, but the developers treat it like an open beta long after release, like No Man’s Sky 10 years ago, which is now a fan favorite. Given what you’ve said, that the stakes are so high now, the expectations are so high, the budgets are so high, is that going to be the new trend for even AAA gaming? That on release we maybe don’t get the game we were looking for, but over time it coalesces?
“That is a slippery slope. I think there are some companies that will probably choose to do that, but that is a slippery slope because you better get it right and you better respond and respond well, because otherwise you’re just gonna shoot yourself in the foot and never recover. That’s a really hard one. I mean, obviously you lessen the risk if it’s something that’s known and you already have excitement for, but if it’s something brand new, that’s kind of your nail in your coffin on that one. So that’s a tough one.
“But I’ve seen that as well. The games that I’m involved with now or the companies that I’m working for now, they do that. I think that’s kind of the model right for certain things because that’s really the way smaller developers can get their game out there and get some feedback and start to grow. You get that organic, hey, you’re part of the early development team. You’re helping us develop this game and helping us test this stuff and getting it going. So I think that’s a good way to get some loyalty and stuff like that too. But that’s a slower growth path. You’re looking at a decade or something like that.”
Q. Yeah, early access for a small developer is one thing, but if you’ve got a big GTA-esque budget, I guess fans aren’t going to be too sympathetic to that.
“No, and again, 100 pounds, 100 dollars, you have expectations. It’s like, okay, we’re co-developing with you, this thing better be good. With Saints Row, that was one of the things we got dinged on a few times, especially with the early games: “this is buggy.” But then we released patches and things like that.
“But we had to hit it, and that’s the double-edged sword we are, right? You got these big budgets, you have to get them out on time because of all the marketing and everything that’s behind it. But yet it comes out, and you can always do more. You can always fix more bugs, make things look better and stuff like that, test it more. But you got to get it out and then you can improve it from there. It’s that sweet spot. Where’s the right spot? It’s too early. You waited too long. Kind of thing like that.”
Q. I guess if given what happened with Cyberpunk … CD Projekt Red did an amazing job to kind of pull it back. But they can’t do it again with Witcher 4 or the sequel to Cyberpunk, can they? You can kind of do it once maybe.
“Yeah, you spent that capital and that’s … you’re very lucky if people forgive you more than once for that. Yes, for sure.”
Q. There are a lot of fans and even some analysts that are a bit scared about what would happen if Gabe Newell stepped back or they sold Steam to Microsoft or something like that. How, as a developer and as a player as well, is that scary? The idea of big tech taking over Steam? Or do you think we’d find a way?
“Yeah, I think it’s always scary for big tech like that to anybody, whether it’s Amazon or Microsoft or something like that. Because you look at what Microsoft’s done to their studios and their game development, and it’s just not in the best interest of a gamer. And at the end of the day, I mean, yeah, it’s a business, but that business is there, it’s been sustained, and you’re at that level because of your customers, right? And what you’ve built.
“It’s almost like, you know, you kind of get to that point where you just ignore what got you there and you do your own thing. So the purity of it and things like that, it’s just … there’s the emotional factor, but there’s also the business factor, right? I think you can’t lose sight of that because you’re going to limit yourself and you really potentially drive yourself out of business if you don’t pay attention to those things.
“But then you have that mentality of too big to fail, and they’re like, we can do whatever we want. People will still do it. Well, to a certain point, yes. But does that have the legs that something else had where you had the support of all your user base and stuff like that? That’s a tough one. I think a lot of big companies lose touch of that. And it’s just a matter of time. And then what do they do? You see a lot of this. They’ll do that and have all that and they’ll try to do it and they can’t do it. And then they sell it or it goes private or something like that. Then it kind of resurrects where they were just different owners. So you kind of see that full circle life cycle for a lot of that stuff. There’s some pain, then it gets back to a good place, and hopefully it doesn’t just die. But yeah, Steam would be … that’s so ingrained in what we do. It’s so accessible.
Q. Yeah, because I mean, it’s not flawless, but it’s a pretty good way. I’d go as far as a community really, because it is just everyone on there every single day.
“Yeah, and for the right reasons. Valve, you know, you look at Valve, you look at Naughty Dog. You look at companies who grew with their fans and the fans have that loyalty and they love it. But for the most part, they’re there for the gamers, right? They’re there for the betterment of the whole industry and for people, for things to be accessible at all scales … small developers, big developers. So yeah, that’s what you like to see. Keep some equity across the board.
Q. And what are your hopes for the Steam Machine as well? As a developer, or also as a player as well, what do you make of it? Is that an opportunity for developers? Does it add a new interest in the platform to go after and optimize for?
“I think for a smaller developer, one of the challenges, especially with PC … I’m much more of a PC gamer than I am a platform gamer. But the challenge with that is, especially for smaller developers, is the variety of GPUs and CPUs and all the peripherals and everything like that you have and really trying to test all that stuff to something that’s accessible to most, right? That is very hard. So to have something that’s more of a standard platform, that’s why the platforms are the gaming platforms, PS, the Xbox. Those are all known quantities, right? You know what you got, you know exactly what the hardware specs are and everything, so you can develop to that.
“PCs are a much wider spectrum of all that stuff, so it’s just harder. So I think you kind of find that sweet spot with that. But what’s your upgrade path? How well can you keep up with things and technology? Because that’s the pros and cons of the Xbox and the PlayStation versus PC. You can always upgrade your PC. Will your game work on it? Maybe, maybe not. You might have to wait until something, an update. But on the platforms, they will always work. There’s standards and that sort of thing. So you try to maybe find a little more of a sweet spot for that PC platform to be standardized for developers. And again, for smaller developers, they can take more advantage of that than not. So yeah, it should be interesting. I’m with you on that. They have great potential. So let’s see what happens.”
Q. You talked about Microsoft. Their CEO said that he now views Xbox’s competition is not with gaming companies, but with TikTok. What did you make of that?
“I think as an entertainer, if you look at the broad, broad, broad spectrum of entertainment, sure, right? TikTok, YouTube, Pinterest, Xbox, I mean, yeah, to some point. But I think you got to look at your demographics of who’s using what, because mobile platforms versus an Xbox or something like that. Where does that crossover? Where does that Venn diagram overlap? I don’t really know. I think there’s a lot of space there for all players, especially what you’ve already established. I don’t think I’d have to understand more of that context of how they envision TikTok being more of a direct competitor, which is what it sounds like that quote was.
“I see it as 24 hours of the day, right? I’m gonna work, play on my Xbox, look at TikTok, do this stuff. Sure. But for that person, for the demographic who’s … I don’t know. But then maybe, maybe to his point, maybe that is a younger generation thing, right? You’re trying to get younger users to play these platforms and grow that generational interest. And maybe TikTok is encroaching on that younger generation’s time. Yeah, okay, I could see that.”
Q. They say in sports broadcasts as well, the amount of kids that just don’t watch games now, they’ll just pick up the highlights on TikTok. So maybe he meant it in that sense, and it’s a corrosive presence for actually engaging in the thing.
“Yeah, that’s a good point. That’s a good point because it’s such short snippets, right? Very short attention span. I just want to see the scoring. I don’t want to see the plays in between, so I’m just gonna focus on that. But I think what that misses is the community of it, right? Kids get on because they play with their friends and they do stuff. They get on and play with their friends. They enjoy doing that with their friends and just having fun. TikTok is funny and entertaining and you learn things, right? Different purposes. But I think you reach a saturation point on that stuff and you gotta find something new. Yeah, that’s a tough one. You could dedicate your life to studying the psychology of that stuff. Hopefully, that’d be good data, right?”
Q. Regarding AI in game development: There’s AI voices in the new Arc Raiders game, and there’s some cosmetics that have been made with AI in the new Black Ops as well. As a developer, as someone who makes games, someone who is involved in the industry in many different ways, should developers feel threatened by AI?
“No, I don’t think developers should be threatened by it. One of the companies I work for out of Montreal, we’re doing a lot with AI, primarily helping build games and helping smaller developers leverage AI to make more with the resources that they have. I think it would behoove any developer to learn as much as they can about AI, the limitations as well as what it can do and the capabilities. There are some drawbacks. You hear a lot about AI being able to do all this stuff.
“Well, AI is not that grand right now, not at this period of time. It has some limitations and you have to be aware of the limitations and the capabilities to make it work in what you need. But it is definitely a resource that you can utilize to grow from one or two developers or a small company to make it look like you’re doing more than you could with the actual resources you have.
“Whether it’s voice stuff, whether it’s writing, even some coding … the coding is a little tricky. The coding is one where you really have to know how to do it and how to set up the cues and things like that to get what you need, and then just really double-check stuff because AI programming is not anywhere near where people say it is. You just have to be very aware of that. It’s certainly getting better every day. That’s the thing, right?”
Q. Is a sort of push back against losing human jobs to automation something you think would be a nice trend to see, or is that a bit daft?
“I could see that being a great goal, but I don’t see it being real. I see that would be a great, great thing to shoot for, but at the end of the day, it isn’t really practical. You know, because I think you have to embrace that. Especially with a $2 billion budget and stuff like that, if you can shave some off of that and find where you really should be spending that money or things like that. Yeah, that’s an interesting take.”
Q: The Game Awards nominees have come out. Do developers actually care about this? Is there real pride when your game gets nominated and you go through all that?
“There’s pride. If somebody tells you they don’t care about that stuff, at a certain level you’re kind of BSing, right? I think to have recognition from your peers especially, that’s meaningful, right? Whether it’s meaningful to the point where it’s like, that’s all I want to do is be recognized by my peers and stuff like that. I think it’s more about, hey, I did a good job. I feel like I did a good job and it’s being reinforced by nominations or even winning, which is escalating that even better.
“I think at the end of the day, if the fans like what you’ve done and you’ve made a good game and you get good press, to me that’s always meant more—whether we were nominated for something for Saints Row or whether I would talk to somebody at a concert and they would say, hey, I played that game, that game was awesome, and stuff like that. That means more to me. But I know professionally, and that’s the other thing too, right? Professionally, you make it. We’re at the end of the day making entertainment, right?
“We’re not trying to change the world. We’re not trying to cure cancer or anything. We’re entertaining people, trying to take their mind off of something, have them immerse themselves in an environment away from their everyday life and things like that. So if someone said that was enjoyable, to me that means that we did our job and we had a good time.
“My peers recognize it too, that means something too professionally. The colleagues recognize that. So yeah, I think it does. I think it does. And winning—it’s kind of one of those things—is winning that much more of an accolade than just being nominated? I think in the world of games, when there’s so many games out there, being recognized as somewhat of a leader or something you did things right. I think just being nominated is pretty darn special.”
Q. Is there anything you’d like to talk about your current projects as well? Is there anything you want to tell the world about at the moment?
“I really don’t have a lot that I’m working on that’s super exciting. This one game and stuff like that. I’m doing a lot of different things now. I’m semi-retired, which is no thanks to Saints Row and all the fun stuff that happened there, and I’ve been able to do that, kind of do my own thing. I’m helping my brother’s IT company. The company out of Montreal that I was mentioning called Iron Belly Studios.
“They’re doing a lot of different things. They’re working with for-hire customers to develop applications. Some are games, some do animation, some art, some programming. But on the AI side, they’re working on a game engine to work with Epic and Unreal to create, to help developers use AI to use a game in the Web3 space and things like that.
“Yeah, it’s just a bunch of different things. Nothing like, hey, check out this one specific game. There’s a bunch of different stuff going on. And my role’s changed from what it was before with managing a specific game project. Really now, I use my skills and experience in doing all of that. I’m able to help out on the business end and more strategy and things like that. Really, it’s not nearly as much fun to talk about when you say you are working on this type of stuff. But for me, it’s fun because I can do it from anywhere. I can do it anytime I want, stuff like that. So it definitely gives me flexibility and freedom.”